Heart rate

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J2R
J2R
Sep 2022
10:48am, 16 Sep 2022
4,376 posts
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J2R
For anyone here working with a 5 zone system, how are you determining your zones? I have hitherto been using percentages of heart rate reserve (Karvonen method). But yesterday I took a look at using the Joe Friel method, as used on e.g. Training Peaks. There the zones aren't calculated as percentages of your maximum heart rate but as percentages of your heart rate at lactate threshold, which you determine by doing a 30 minute flat-out run and getting your average heart rate for the last 20 minutes of it.

What I'm ending up with using this method is values rather higher than before, with the top of my zone 1 being 136 and top of my zone 2 being 144. With Karvonen and top of zones 1 and 2 being defined as 60% and 70% respectively, the figures with this method would be 123 and 136, much lower.

Now, I'm inclined to feel that the Friel figures are possibly unrealistic, but I'm intrigued. Yes, the Karvonen value takes into account your current fitness by using your resting heart rate, but not as much as the Friel method's use of the lactate threshold, a value which I would imagine changes more with increased fitness. I can certainly run with my heart rate in the low 140s and chat away happily, which I really shouldn't be able to if this is some way above the top of my zone 2, so in this respect I can believe the Friel figures are more accurate.

What do people think?
J2R
J2R
Sep 2022
10:52am, 16 Sep 2022
4,377 posts
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J2R
I should have said that the impetus for doing this was the desire to be able to separate out zone 1 and zone 2 training a little more, after reading various things about the benefits of lots of zone 1 stuff recently, including in this fascinating description of Kilian Jornet's training: mtnath.com
larkim
larkim
Sep 2022
10:56am, 16 Sep 2022
18,995 posts
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larkim
There's always a temptation by me to use calcs to push those lower figures up, even though I know that low is good! Will watch the discussion with interest!
Bowman 🇸🇪
Bowman 🇸🇪
Sep 2022
6:38am, 28 Sep 2022
1,778 posts
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Bowman 🇸🇪
I'm a little confused over my higher resting HR, it's been like this for almost 3 weeks now i think.
Also during exercise, its about 10 beats higher on the same effort.
(HRV is very low as well)

I have been between 44-48 over time during rest once in a while as low as 42, but now, since a little infection in the body that started about three weeks ago, its 55-57 bpm every night.

It has been a long time since i´ve been ill, so i can't remember how its been before.
Besides that, i feel ok during exercise, not great, but normal.

Anyone has any experiences of this?
riggys99
riggys99
Sep 2022
6:49am, 28 Sep 2022
1,272 posts
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riggys99
Hello
Started using HR again to help with training. I have been using the 80/20 book as a guide. I used the 80/20 calculator to work out my zones according the my LT HR as mentioned in J2R post. I have found it fits quite well and over the weekend did 2 runs completely in z1 according to HR that felt right. I did a tempo run on Monday night using RPE Hr and pace to guide it HR was spot on for RPE and pace.
Bowman your raised resting HR could be following your recent illness and it may just be taking time to return to normal. I normally check my resting HR when I wake up
Bowman 🇸🇪
Bowman 🇸🇪
Sep 2022
7:34am, 28 Sep 2022
1,779 posts
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Bowman 🇸🇪
Yea it seems logic for sure, but i haven't experienced this before. At least not been aware like this.
Bowman 🇸🇪
Bowman 🇸🇪
Sep 2022
7:57am, 28 Sep 2022
1,780 posts
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Bowman 🇸🇪
Damn..
"The study found patients who were positive for the infection took longer to return to their pre-infection resting heart rate, sleep duration, and step counts, compared to those who tested negative for the virus, though resting heart rate took the longest to recover. On average, it took patients 79 days after symptom onset for their resting heart rate to return to normal, versus 32 and 24 days for step count and sleep quality, respectively."

contagionlive.com
Steve NordRunner
Steve NordRunner
Sep 2022
8:00am, 28 Sep 2022
1,955 posts
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Steve NordRunner
Frosty The Bowman 🇸🇪 I had a RHR like that a few weeks ago. I either had a newer COVID, other flu or something like that. The illness itself was at least a week and it took at least another two weeks for the RHR to return to near-normal. In that time I cut my training right down and only did low intensity.

Since you are in a taper now I would take it very easy for now. Note that you can't improve on where you have come to from your previous training during the final two weeks before a marathon anyway.
Bowman 🇸🇪
Bowman 🇸🇪
Sep 2022
8:09am, 28 Sep 2022
1,781 posts
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Bowman 🇸🇪
Thanks Steve, sounds promising.
Yea you are right about the training.
I so hoped to get a good tapering and preparation race (the 10k I had to DNF) I hoped for a few last hard progressive long runs.
Now it will be nothing liked I planned for my late year marathon.
And if my RHR is not back to normal until then I won’t start.

All that training and planning and nothing went my way 🤣.
Well there’s always next year.
Steve NordRunner
Steve NordRunner
Sep 2022
8:24am, 28 Sep 2022
1,956 posts
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Steve NordRunner
J2R I have been wrestling with zones recently too, after perhaps 40 marathons based on Friel-type zones. I have switched recently to Andy Coggan-type zones. The main difference was in zone 2 and zone 4. I read a link comparing the differences but I can't find it. It is discussed in https://forum.tritalk.co.uk/t/coggan-vs-friel-heart-rate-zones/3028.

The impetus for change came from 80/20 principles, fetch's HR analysis, a heart-rate strap showing power, a watch seeming to give a consistent LTHR and 7-day RHR, several threshold races. I've given up fiddling because zoning is anyway a bit arbitrary so long as I know what easy and intense are.

Just FYInterest, the boundary points I have set expressed for convenience in terms of %maxHR are 96, 88, 77, 63. That gives me credible times in z5 (a few minutes at best) a z4 that straddles my LTHR and what I can race for a good 40 mins, which I know from my 5 mi time, and an easy zone which I can stay in on the flat without an unnatural gait if I am careful to run very easily. (I find the way of setting zones on a Garmin watch confusing, and I set in direct BPM after calcs, but that's another story.)

About This Thread

Maintained by Elderberry
Everything you need to know about training with a heart rate monitor. Remember the motto "I can maintain a fast pace over the race distance because I am an Endurance God". Mind the trap door....

Gobi lurks here, but for his advice you must first speak his name. Ask and you shall receive.

A quote:

"The area between the top of the aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold is somewhat of a no mans land of fitness. It is a mix of aerobic and anaerobic states. For the amount of effort the athlete puts forth, not a whole lot of fitness is produced. It does not train the aerobic or anaerobic energy system to a high degree. This area does have its place in training; it is just not in base season. Unfortunately this area is where I find a lot of athletes spending the majority of their seasons, which retards aerobic development. The athletes heart rate shoots up to this zone with little power or speed being produced when it gets there." Matt Russ, US International Coach

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