When We Cease to Understand the World - Book Group June 2021 discussion thread

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Peregrinator Jun 2021 10:45am, 26 Jun 2021 873 posts	0 Peregrinator When We Cease to Understand the World Benjamín Labatut, Adrian Nathan West (Tr.) Well that's a literal turn up: a book with Alexander Grothendieck as a main character. Since Offspring1 is a consulting algebraic geometer, we light candles each day to Alexander for giving him gainful employment. I enjoyed the James Burke Connections tv programs, which cleverly twisted through history to link unlikely events with a quirky humour. When We Cease to Understand the World does some of the same, but much more darkly. It also mixes fact and fiction, which annoys me. But worse it's a stereotype picture of science and maths being done by crazy white men. Women in maths have problems enough getting on: of the 85 Fields Medals awarded only one has been to a woman (Maryam Mirzakhani in 2014). And it's not that there aren't stories to be told: Sophie Germain and Emmy Noether for starters. We didn't spend Offspring1's childhood stopping him putting marmalade on his scrambled eggs, or running down the street without his clothes on. He is to all appearances a reasonably well adjusted human being. He has said that doing maths has developed the way his mind works, but it seems built on the abilities of concentration, having a good memory, curiosity, and the resilience to deal with things not working 99% of the time, and the buzz of the remaining 1%. Offspring1's view of Shinichi Mochizuki's recent work is that even if it is patchable, it still won't do what Mochizuki says: in effect it goes round in a big circle and adds nothing. Money is being spent by the UK on this, even though it doesn't seem to have much potential. Probably my cynical view, but the Japanese government is backing Mochizuki through the Research Institute for Mathematical Sciences (RIMS) at Kyoto University, and Japan is a founder member of the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) that the UK has applied to join; so a UK politician might think, why not bung a few pennies into this (Mathematics comes cheap) if it helps oil the wheels. This government is increasing the political input into what basic research is funded - not sure this is going to end well. So When We Cease to Understand the World annoyed me, although that might not have been Benjamín Labatut's intention.
Peregrinator Jun 2021 11:03am, 26 Jun 2021 874 posts	0 Peregrinator Columba - what happens within a black hole is of some debate. Humans are likely to meet a grisly end, stretched by the gravitational gradient. But the situation with particles is different. Offspring1 says there are 6 different views on the "black hole information paradox": to publish anything in support of one, is to invite ad hominem attacks from supporters of the other 5. Offspring1 says such attacks are much more common in Theoretical Physics than in Pure Maths (Mochizuki not withstanding), because mathematicians have a better understanding of proof.
Peregrinator Jun 2021 11:13am, 26 Jun 2021 875 posts	0 Peregrinator McGoohan - Vote up for a complex number scoring system - I give this 6 +4i.
Peregrinator Jun 2021 11:19am, 26 Jun 2021 876 posts	0 Peregrinator GregP 127515 post in the Book Group - well yes.
Chrisull Jun 2021 1:23pm, 27 Jun 2021 17,907 posts	0 Chrisull Well the fact/fiction is something covered more explitly in another Book Group thread book HhHH, where the author wrestles with the thorny problem that most "fact"/non fiction contains not inconsiderable amounts of fiction or interpretation or conjecture. So given that when you pick up a non fiction book that will contain a reasonable amount of fiction, perhaps it is a more "honest" account by stating it up front. Having said that, does he marry the two in a way that adds to the source material? The jury is most definitely out.... And yes the crazy white men stereotyping is something that plagues not just science, and maths but art, music and of course literature. I was wondering about having Barbara Kingsolver originally as my choice with her more explicitly fictional rendering of "fact", but I felt the Lacuna - a previous book I'd read by her was also flawed for similar reasons and irritated me.
GregP Jul 2021 8:15am, 3 Jul 2021 127,620 posts	0 GregP Cosmic uterus, eh? You literary types get all the best tropes.
GregP Jul 2021 8:23am, 3 Jul 2021 127,623 posts	0 GregP (Loved Perrers 873. My review, when I get to it, will be similar but less well written)
GregP Jul 2021 8:44am, 4 Jul 2021 127,637 posts	0 GregP I'm not sure I can write a coherent review at the moment. Here are some thoughts in the mean time. (1) during the course of the book I read many things about the great (mad white male) minds of the last century. I am told that some of these things are not true. I am not told which ones. Thus I put down the book less well informed than when I started. it This makes me, for want of a better word, angry. Or livid, possibly. (2) the masturbation scenes were telegraphed many pages ahead. We knew they were coming, as it were. And then they came. Presumably we were meant to be repulsed, and so we were. I'm clearly not a sufficiently sophisticated reader to find this clever or subversive. I just found it unpleasant. And a bit sad. (3) the solitary C word. This may be a translator's trick, it may be true to the Spanish, but either way it added nothing and only served to mildly shock and offend. Greater minds will doubtless tell me this was 'clever'. (4) I don't understand why we got the lemon tree story twice. I'm not really sure why we needed it the first time. I'm sure this is my loss. (5) The Night Gardener section at the end felt the work of another hand, or at least another, inferior, translator. Again possibly a literary device that went over my head. In summary, I'm sure there's a reader that will adore this book. I am not that reader. That's for damn sure.
LindsD Jul 2021 11:58am, 6 Jul 2021 48,222 posts	0 LindsD I really liked this. Despite reservations, it turned out to be just what I needed to get my out of my reading slump. I studied maths in the distant past, so knew a little of some of the stories/facts. I thought I might get annoyed by the mixing of fact and fiction, but actually didn't. The only part I didn't like was the last story, because I felt like I was missing a connection. I couldn't see the point of it. I found the personal (weird) stories behind the scientific theories/discoveries compelling and read the book in a matter of days. I found the first story especially interesting, with the good/bad discoveries juxtaposed. I also thought it made a good point that people who do or discover extraordinary things are often somewhat out of the ordinary in their lives, behaviours and opinions. Thanks, Chris, for choosing it. Will read back now. I gave it an 8, which could have been 9 without the last story.
LindsD Jul 2021 11:59am, 6 Jul 2021 48,223 posts	0 LindsD PS thought the translation was pretty good, too.