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Dec 2022
1:45pm, 10 Dec 2022
2,147 posts
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paulcook
It's a brilliant read, thank you for the post.
Perhaps I'm reading this differently from the above posts though. My main take out, on a personal level at least, isn't necessarily to improve specific downhill technique even though I've a lot of work to do there, but the general downhill running over a longer period to maintain a higher pace for longer.
I'm using the rule of N of 1 here, but the first time I ran the Three Peaks, I wasn't running at the end because I was in too much pain to even run downhill (uphill actually wasn't so much of a problem) and from memory it was more the hips. That comes down to the sustained biomechanics and I was losing time to most of those around me at that point. Secondly, my last ultra was comfortably my best performance and it was the final runnable miles that made the biggest difference; having run that race 4 times now, this year I was able to put in 9x sub-10 minute miles for the second half of the race when in the previous 3 times I've done it I reckon I've only had 3 in total by that point. That was down to greater endurance this year and probably also a body that was not fighting against me and letting me run freely when the terrain is easier.
Yes, I've got lots of work to do on downhill technique that I'm continually finding little opportunities to work on but that last couple of years of training has taught me a better engine has improved my performances and more sustained miles in training has built a more bulletproof body generally.
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Dec 2022
1:47pm, 10 Dec 2022
2,148 posts
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paulcook
Probably all summed up better by the quote you picked out ff.
"Give me an athlete who can go downhills sustainably across many hours, and I’ll show you an athlete who can perform at the highest percentage of their ceiling."
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Dec 2022
2:02pm, 10 Dec 2022
3,568 posts
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flyingfinn
I’m the same. Just to put it into context, a sub 2hr Half runner on the road beat me at a hilly, 7-mile trail race where I was basically having to walk down the hills (I’m a sub-90 Half runner on the roads). I’m embarrassed at how awful I am at the descents on trails! I have tried to practice this in the past at local, hilly trail parkruns etc, but improvements are minimal. I think for me 90%+ of it is in my head. I’ve fallen and injured myself quite badly on two occasions and I have the ‘what if my head had hit a rock or a tree stump?’ thoughts whirling through my my mind. If there are any tricks to help with this I’d be happy to hear them, otherwise I accept I’m destined to forever be crap
Big_G start by finding yourself a moderate slope on a good surface (a forest track is perfect). Do downhill floats focussing on landing your feet under your body, keeping your body perpendicular to the surface and actively using your arms (this means having them moving backwards and forwards in time with your strides, elbows at 90 degrees, not flapping around or completely passive). Get used to the sensation of quick light feet under your centre of gravity. Then start to find steeper slopes to practice on. As it gets steeper find places where a fall won't involve hitting things. All the time focus on being in control. You shouldn't need the ground flattening out to regain control/stop. Understanding the sensation you're trying to create in a race will certainly help your race descending. It may never be a strength be it will be less of a weakness.
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Dec 2022
2:12pm, 10 Dec 2022
3,569 posts
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flyingfinn
Thanks Paul.
In reference to your second para I take your point about improving general downhill running over a longer period but I also think the better your downhill technique the less stress/damage each downhill imposes on your body and therefore the longer you can maintain a higher pace. To that end none of us should stop focussing on our technique. Rather than just switching off or careering downhill on a training run we would all benefit from actively thinking about how we are descending. Working on that and our aerobic capacity or our muscle endurance are not mutually exclusive.
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Dec 2022
2:53pm, 10 Dec 2022
17,700 posts
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NDWDave
I dug out my stats from the orange site from the Copthorne 100. 10 loops round Box Hill so it involved same runner (me) hitting the sections with increasing levels of fatigue
Flat section after about a mile. Typical deterioration for me - a bit worse as it started raining and it was a 30+ hour race
Then Kamikaze hill - a technical descent with roots and slippery leaves
And Box Hill - lap 8 I was briefly chatting to someone who lapped me
Shows the difference that fatigue makes to the speed of different sections. I could definitely have gained some chunks of time by pushing harder (or at least running) on the descents later on
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Dec 2022
4:10pm, 10 Dec 2022
583 posts
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icenutter
After running the granddaddy of downhill ultras, Comrades, what helped me massively was strength training. The usual stuff like squats and lunges.
What also helped was running ‘easy’ downhill. Other people were going slower down but were braking which in the long run is tough on your legs.
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Dec 2022
4:18pm, 10 Dec 2022
2,182 posts
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Big_G
Thanks FF. I’ll try working on that.
icenutter, I’ve not done Comrades, but in UK there is Dartmoor Discovery, which is a road race, and I’m ok on that and I was pleased with my performance the last time I did it. I live in a hilly area and did quite a lot of elevation (for me) in the build up. My weakness is off road, I feel, in terms of technique.
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Dec 2022
5:48pm, 10 Dec 2022
9,335 posts
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Northern Exile
After running the granddaddy of downhill ultras, Comrades, what helped me massively was strength training. The usual stuff like squats and lunges. What also helped was running ‘easy’ downhill. Other people were going slower down but were braking which in the long run is tough on your legs.
I wasn't aware of this, I'd have thought races like the UTMB/TDS etc exceeded it easily. How much overall ascent/descent is there in Comrades? Does it depend on the direction ran?
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Dec 2022
5:57pm, 10 Dec 2022
17,702 posts
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NDWDave
If Comrades is the grandaddy (1921) then Western States must be the daddy (1977)
Ronda Dels Cims would have been the most descent of a ~100 mile race I think but no longer exists sadly
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Dec 2022
6:00pm, 10 Dec 2022
3,570 posts
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flyingfinn
Good points icenutter, though we'll have to beg to differ on Comrades being the "granddaddy of downhill ultras". Compared with most off road ultras it is very much on the flat side.
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best running watch for ultra marathon?
May 2021