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Oct 2018
10:42pm, 10 Oct 2018
1,073 posts
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Andrew65
Larkim's explanation is most likely to be correct. You can, overshoot a little when first increasing workload.
Also, another way of thinking about it- given the scenario described- at the beginning of an increased effort, you are building up momentum. You know, like when you pull away in your car, you increase the revs, but once you have built up enough kinetic energy, you don't need to use so much fuel to maintain that speed.
SSLHP- that is true! Your resp rate is going to be a good measure of how efficiently you are buffering acids via the lungs. It would be useful if chest straps could measure Resp rate too. But then, that would just be one more bit of data for us to get OCD about 
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Oct 2018
11:53am, 11 Oct 2018
5,806 posts
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larkim
Not entirely heart rate per se, but I'm having that pang of conscience again as a husband and dad who runs after the Cardiff Half deaths of runners at the end, and its reminded me of the death of someone I knew at the Chester Metric last year in similar circumstances.
Is it likely that there is *anything* (short of not running at all) that these chaps might have known / could have known during the event itself which might have told them them were going into a very dangerous zone? Or is it simply "just one of those things"?
There's little point living your entire life avoid risks associated with exertion and on balance it seems to me that the benefits of running outweigh the risks. But if there's anything I could do which would reduce the likelihood of me heading out the door to a race one day and not coming back I'd like to know what it is - especially as I know I do monitor my HR during those events (and to date have noticed nothing unusual that would cause me to want to see a doc).
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Oct 2018
11:57am, 11 Oct 2018
13,341 posts
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Chrisull
Do what I'm doing, going to a cardiologist to get it checked out, that can't be much more you can do apart from that. You are statistically safer running that marathon than walking/driving the same stretch of road if was a just a normal non-race day I believe.
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Oct 2018
11:58am, 11 Oct 2018
13,342 posts
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Chrisull
(Ok there was a slight tic on one of my 12 ECG leads that the doc said could just be part of my own unique physical makeup, but I'd rather have it checked).
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Oct 2018
12:09pm, 11 Oct 2018
5,808 posts
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larkim
So go to a doc on the basis of no symptoms (in my case) and say "I want to be a runner, how risky am I?" Fair enough, but my understanding of these sudden incidents are that they aren't predictable so that is likely to tell me nothing of real usefulness (unless they actually find some pre-existing condition!)
I'm more interested in what I might feel on the day / in the race that I might choose to ignore / respond to. Presumably there's actually nothing really that can be done.
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Oct 2018
1:47pm, 11 Oct 2018
985 posts
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oumaumau
I read about SCD (sudden cardiac death) just last night (Mark Hines Marathon des Sables book if you are interested). It would appear without significant investment in cardiac imaging/study for defects, there is no way of telling if you are at risk. He talks of a study using MRI, ECG and ultrasound to study heart function and chamber size increases in trained endurance athletes, but interestingly several participants were ejected from the study due to irregularities in electrical function. Sadly one of these athletes ignored the advice to cease all strenuous exercise and passed away, while the fate of the others is not known as they left the study.
This is only a single study, but there are measurable risk factors - likely to be a paid for private option though.
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Oct 2018
2:10pm, 11 Oct 2018
29,351 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Larks, don't know if I've related what the doc told me when I asked same (prompted by same concerns, though from my wife, rather than me - but what if you drop dead doing a marathon, she asked?)
Doc asked: did any of your parents or grandparents have a serious heart related incident or die of heart disease before age 70? In my case, the answer is no. She said you then have such a vanishingly small likelihood of having any cardiac abnormality that it's not even worth looking into. And the exercise that you are doing is increasing your fitness and risk of most conditions including heart related conditions. And you're more likely to die on your 10 min drive home from the surgery. And...
So apart from the fact that there is no genetic incidence of heart problems, for me, this wasn't much use. I was asking really, how do I find out if I have a risk, even if it's less of a risk than being eaten by a shark (as I have no plan to swim in shark infested waters) But NHS certainly wasn't prepared to do patient elected investigation in my case anyway.
Let me know if you find out differently. G
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Oct 2018
2:13pm, 11 Oct 2018
5,809 posts
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larkim
Yep that's my perspective on it too HG. Which is why I'm more interested in the "on the day, if I'd identified factor / data X and stopped / headed for a medic, I'd be alive today".
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Oct 2018
2:19pm, 11 Oct 2018
17,901 posts
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flanker
I tend to agree with that logic Happy, but more importantly my partner (and, I think to a large extent, the kids) accept that if I happen to go through running, be it a heart issue or falling off the side of a mountain (probably more likely!) I've gone doing something that I enjoy while still of sound mind and body. Whic is far better than spending my last years sat in a care home, drooling, unable to communicate and terminally unhappy (we as a family do have a dementia history).
But more to the point when I started running I was pushing 20 stone, living off takeaways, drinking far too much and generally working myself into a very early grave. Running has been key to reversing this, and hopefully giving me several extra decades of good health. I'll take those odds.
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Oct 2018
2:28pm, 11 Oct 2018
5,810 posts
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larkim
Definitely echo that Flanker. And for me I'd much rather enjoy life than avoid all risks (which simply isn't feasible anyway).
As I say, I was more interested in whether there might be anything at all that the "enthusiastic" runner like me might see on a HRM (assuming its reliable!) that I could react to and say "that's bad, I need to stop and grab a medic NOW" with sufficient time to allow them to address it. Or is it just likely to be one of those things where if it happens, it happens and there is nothing that you can do to predict it or prevent it even very close to the event itself.
I thought it was notable that the two men who sadly died at the weekend were not at the swifter end of the HM spectrum - 1h52 and 2h01 - and they both finished and went into cardiac arrest in the finish area so perversely it was not the actual exertion in the moment that caused the issue it seems. The 1h52 runner appeared to be young, fit and very active in particular, and "fortunately" the specific risk of SCD in young, fit men is something I no longer have to worry about!
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