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Jun 2017
6:24pm, 9 Jun 2017
12,741 posts
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Fenland (Fenners) Runner
It's all about the training. My knowledge of John K is that the (target) HR is so relatively low and he is so well trained that the HR drift doesn't happen. More like fatigue towards the end of an Ultra prevents HR being able to climb.
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Jun 2017
7:20pm, 9 Jun 2017
316 posts
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Brunski
Fenners - I take it John K's pace drops toward the end of an ultra then. As if he is fatigued he'd need to push the effort to maintain the pace.
Everything I've read suggests a drift as the race goes on. If I was to run a marathon by heart rate I'd probably look to go out at around low 82-85% but expect to get Into the 90+% in the last couple of miles.
I've read before that most well run marathons average out around 88-89% overall, but to go out at that HR would be a recipe for disaster as leaves you nowhere to go but slower as your HR drifts.
A better way to prepare would be to test the HR at different paces, or see what your pace is at low 80%(ish), and see how that would compare to your expectations of MP.
I'm by no means an expert on this but my plan if using HR would be even pacing on the whole, but with a knowledge of what to expect from your heart rate. Basically an early warning in case you'd set off a bit optimistic, or if feeling good and your HR indicates you have more to give, would be the way to go.
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Jun 2017
7:35pm, 9 Jun 2017
12,743 posts
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Fenland (Fenners) Runner
Marathons and Ultras are different beasts. And then road Ultra's are different to trail ones.
I think that advantage of running to HR, is that all the 'nutters' who feel good at the start expend too much energy. The idea is to pick a HR that is as sustainable as possible and later in the race being able to take advantage of any favourable gradients.
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Jun 2017
7:45pm, 9 Jun 2017
11,410 posts
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Bazoaxe
running slower for the same HR is still HR drift
in my experience you dont see drift or at least delay the start of it if you start out easier than you are capable of running
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Jun 2017
8:14pm, 9 Jun 2017
317 posts
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Brunski
Agree Baz, I'd think at around the 10 mile point the drift starts if you are running to your best abilities, possibly later if really well trained aerobically and in cool calm conditions.
Yes people can pick a heart rate that is sustainable and not likely to drift, but that'd likely be a pace under their potential best - it's going to be harder to run the 26th mile than the 2nd, 3rd or 4th at a given pace.
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Jun 2017
8:14pm, 9 Jun 2017
318 posts
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Brunski
Agree Baz, I'd think at around the 10 mile point the drift starts if you are running to your best abilities, possibly later if really well trained aerobically and in cool calm conditions.
Yes people can pick a heart rate that is sustainable and not likely to drift, but that'd likely be a pace under their potential best - it's going to be harder to run the 26th mile than the 2nd, 3rd or 4th at a given pace.
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Jun 2017
8:16pm, 9 Jun 2017
319 posts
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Brunski
Fenners - I can see why you'd do that in an ultra, and I guess he's very adept at burning a good %age of fat for his fuel 👍
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Jun 2017
9:02am, 10 Jun 2017
12,746 posts
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Fenland (Fenners) Runner
Yep, not every Ultra runner believes in the fat burning strategy BUT from personal experience it is a winner. Go just slightly too fast and you will suffer a severe crash. But tap into fat burning mode and as I stated above it is fatigue not fuel that slows you down.
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Jun 2017
8:38pm, 10 Jun 2017
323 posts
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Brunski
Saw 164bpm during a rainy parkrun this morning. Nothing special about the run, 40 seconds off my best from (ironically) April 1st, but it gives me a lot more confidence that setting my max at 165 I won't be overcooking things and screwing up my bands... Previously only seen 159bpm with the new monitor.
Suspect I'll see higher than 165bpm at. Some point soon, as although I was running hard, Indont think my legs are
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Jun 2017
8:40pm, 10 Jun 2017
324 posts
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Brunski
....quite where they were to lush my heart to the max.
165 sound sensible, or should I 'up' the max a few notches for setting my training zones?
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Daniels Running Formula. The Definitive Wire.
Jul 2023