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Nov 2010
8:33am, 4 Nov 2010
695 posts
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Tizer
Lou, I can see where Inso is possibly coming from. Your training plan for Berlin was excellent and worked well for you, however, there were a number of sessions you did that would probably have been much more beneficial if they were done at a slower pace.
Just becuase you are training to HR does not mean that all your sessions have to be slow or that you have to change your actually marathon plan a great deal. When you start your marathon plan then speedwork definately seems to work for you and should therefore form part of your overall plan. The key, in my view is that you recover from these sessions in the best way you can. That's where HR comes in
I loosely followed the P&D plan this time round. The only difference was that when it asked for a recovery run I made sure the HR was in check. I feel its more about incorporating HR awareness into your plan rather than changing your sessions completely.
Puzzler, I used to have the alerts on but they got too irritating so I don't bother anymore. Not sure I heard the beep for my HR being too low very much
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Nov 2010
8:42am, 4 Nov 2010
2,688 posts
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Joe Hawk
Lou Lou - I can't see any reason that HR training will make you slow down especially as you are only building base at the moment and as PtB said earlier your paces will increase pretty quickly for the same heart rate.
Given that your speed/stamina is good for a sub 3 it is your endurance that needs to be worked on and running at lower effort level will do that.
Inso - What do you suggest she does start running 3 mara's in 3 days or wearing a rucksac on most of her runs those training tactics really made you faster 
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Nov 2010
9:27am, 4 Nov 2010
1,460 posts
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Runamok
I couldn't agree with you more PtB - great post
All my LRs were at a HR < = 70% WHR and meant that I was running at a pace that was at least 60s slower than my marathon pace. Since adopting this approach at the beginning of the year it has resulted in achieving 2 sub-3 marathons and significantly improved my aerobic energy system.
Right, back to drafting my blog post the Marine Corps Marathon......
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Nov 2010
9:29am, 4 Nov 2010
1,461 posts
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Runamok
Crikey, just been listening to marathon talk and I get a mention.. cool!
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Nov 2010
9:30am, 4 Nov 2010
1,084 posts
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P.E...
I would have to agree keep the speedwork as that seems to work for Lou, the idea is now up until say Jan is to build a base. Get improvement at the lower aerobic levels and then say do 10-12 weeks of a similar build up for London that worked so well at Berlin for you Lou and i've no doubt you will smash sub 3.
If I agree on speedwork (as in 3/5/10k paces) is another but I honestly think if something is working for someone then why change??
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Nov 2010
9:31am, 4 Nov 2010
1,085 posts
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P.E...
Runa, quick question if you don't mind mate? Your speed sessions/clubwork is that done at slightly faster than say HM as opposed to 5k?
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Nov 2010
9:34am, 4 Nov 2010
4,425 posts
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Gymfreak
I feel very unqualified to post anything. But on an admittedly far slower scale than the rest of you, when I slowed down my running I got faster at marathons. My runs in the week are very slow and for me this allows me to run quicker in marathons at weekends, I did the whole full taper thing for Abingdon last year (13th marathon) and ran 3.46. This year off a 2 day taper (and no rest days-still a 70+ mile week I think) I ran 3.28 (61st marathon), and can now comfortably (ish!) run 3.45 at weekends without too much effort. I'm running a lot more miles now but at a slower pace. Seems to work for me. But then atm my targets are obviously slightly different. I don't HRM train as such, but effort level is low midweek. Although, admittedly, a lot of marathon experience may have also contributed.
Not sure what my plans are after May when I'll be after a faster marathon at some point.
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Nov 2010
10:01am, 4 Nov 2010
1,462 posts
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Runamok
P.E. - Not a problem. I run 90% of my speedwork sessions at my lactate threshold, i.e. 10 mile to HM pace. This includes tempo/threshold sections within medium to long runs. By doing this I am staying aerobic and improving my lung and heart efficiency. I do do the odd session at VO2 max (5k) to test myself but this is obviously over much shorter distances/intervals and normally when I am targetting a short distance race.
GF - A good post that demonstrates even further the benefit of training slower. It works for all of us whether we are an elite runner, an experienced marathon runner or a first timer.
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Nov 2010
10:20am, 4 Nov 2010
456 posts
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Westley
Great post Paul. I would especially endorse the comment about the twenty seconds difference between MP HR and recovery run HR. However, your recovery pace is probably 30 seconds per mile faster than mine for a marginally higher HR than my average HR would be for recovery runs. You've obviously got a better aerobic base than me. This has added to my own impression that my aerobic base could do with a little enhancing; especially through more 20+ mile runs. I think I only managed three 20 mile runs in the lead up to Dublin this year, if you exclude Koln.
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Nov 2010
10:51am, 4 Nov 2010
2,134 posts
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paul the builder
Baz - I broadly agree with Tizer's suggested structure. Be careful with percentages - he's using % MAX HR figures, and I think you're talking in % WHR...
Right now (and probably all the way up to mid Jan, when I'll switch to a marathon-specific 12 week plan) I'm doing:
- 1 x LSR (18m-ish, average < 70% WHR, but happy to let it creep up now and again on uphills)
- 1 x sub-LT 10 miler (c. 80% max HR, or c. 73% WHR). I'll move the HR up 5bpm for this once it's rock solid. And then this will become the MP session, when it goes up a further 5bpm in Jan.
- 1 x double run/commute day, 25-26m total, same HR attitude as for the LSR. Not on any classic training plans I know, but this is my most practical way to get to 70+ mpw, and I'm looking at it as a hard day, with easy or rest either side. This will most likely be dropped for a session in Jan.
- 3 x 1hr easy, c. 65% WHR. No HR elevation allowed during the run, I keep < 140bpm (67% WHR) for the whole run (and feel guilty if I don't).
Tizer - relax, it'll come back. I had plenty of rubbish easy runs this summer, and started to wonder if I might struggle to get back to that Spring shape again. You will though. Fix the diet though, that'll help ;-).
Puzzler - I don't bother with an alarm. I wouldn't hear it if I'm using the mp3 player anyway (which I do on easy run days). I do look at the HR reading every 300-400 yards I would say. Some might find that an irritating thing to (have to) do, but not me. I love numbers.
Insomniac - I'll have a bet with you then, re: Lou's Spring marathon. We can discuss the loser's forfeit nearer the time :-). Although joking apart - the key thing is that all of us generally (and Lou specifically here) need to be able to make the quality sessions really count, which means the rest of the running is easy(*). Plus - maximising the aerobic capacity (a la my post yesterday evening, which also means keeping safely below particular effort levels). So it's not "HR training" per se that is really important, the HR is a tool to help us get the most out of the time we give to training. I think Tizer absolutely "gets" this (8:33 post).
(*) And X-training is sensible too. It must never compromise the running.
Runamok - glad to hear the bloke making the spectacular gains this year agrees with me. Now, I just need to get myself a little of your progress for myself next year... Usually I listen to MTalk on the run to work on a Thursday morning, but forgot to download it last night. Will look forward to your name being up in lights.
Westley - that gap (20bpm below MP training HR= 60s) wasn't always so small for me, in the early days it was 90sec, and then 75sec - so back then I wasn't so economical at running at low HR. I guess it stands to reason that as I improve more and more at the low HR stuff, the gains get smaller and the relationship gets tighter. At some point, it will be time to switch training type for a cycle or two - but as I've said before, I think for the vast majority of us 'medium-mileage' folk, the biggest gains we can make are the aerobic ones (assuming the marathon is our priority, of course).
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